sound sync recorders

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vespasian:
I have a Sankyo 44xl camera with a PC flash sync socket, and a sharp AV casette tape recorder, it's one of those slide sync recorders. I still need to get a cord. I was wondering if any of you knew what exactly would happen when I press record on the tape player, and start filming with the camera. How does the sync work. I heard that the tape goes the same speed as the camera or something. Let me know if you know something about this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These recorders are designed for synchronizing slide shows and will not stay in synch with your camera. It will just run wild. Sorry.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[Mikko]

Cheapest way to shoot with sound??? A clapper board!
I have done this few times and it works just fine.
Once I had shot a 3 minute scene (one long take) with 18 fps, sound recorded with DAT, clapper board mark in the beginning. After I striped the film I started to record the sound to it from the DAT tape. The first minute went well and the synch hold, but in the end it was way out of synch. I then recorded the sound from the DAT to reel to reel tape and again from the reel to the mag stripe of the film, this time I kept the synch on by speeding the reel to reel tape recorder with my finger. It worked!
I have also filmed some punk bands on the stage with wild synch and I did those without the clapper board! I just filmed the drummer before the songs started and when he did the 1-2-3-4, that was my synch mark.

What do you think, would Kodak make sound film if someone orders it from them? What would be the minimum order? 1000 cartridges?? How about Tri-X with sound!!!?
Anyone interested?

Mikko

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[#Pedro]

First, wild syncing only with clapper board MAY work for a short time, depending A LOT of the individual hardware you use and the specicic framerate/speed of each piece of it. The main knockout is a slight difference between the projector and the camera framerate. Even if both were made by the same manufactorer --- when the camera runs at 17.8 fps and the projector at 18.1 it would be good enough but not for wild sync.

For wild sync, the absolute speed of the projector must at least be adjusted to the camera. Then you can transfer external recorded sound directly to sound stripe. That can be made, filming a szene of f.e. 60 seconds exactly with stop watch. When playing back that szene, the projector must have the same playback time. If not, slight corrections are needed (potentiometer inside), until the playback time fits with the shooting time. No simple way to adjust AC operated projector motors - sorry.

Syncing with the flash contact of the camera was a widly common thing in Europe in the 1970ies and 1980ies. In Europe, we never used much fullcoat in S8 and even 16 mm not. Shure, some did, but most available syncing systems were not made for fullcoat, they were designed for syncing over flash contact. The brands were Gebuhr, P?tter, Erlson, Synputer... and many more.
The live sound recorders which were used, all of them were like these slide AV recorders, exactly the same thing. The flash contact was connected to a special cable containing a tone generator, creating one tone impulse which each frame. These tone impulses were recorded to the tape, but not to one of the stereo chanels, but to a separate impulse head recording to the B-side of the tape, in parallel with the sound on the A-side. This was made in order to avoid impulse coupling to the sound.

Later on, this sound/pulse tape could be used to EASYLY transfer the original sound, even in stereo, to the film stipe, without employing fullcoat.
Some systems required projectors with special sync equipment (Braun Visacustic, Elmo GS1200MO). The pulse output of the tape was used to make the projector run exatly and frame accurate at the speed of the tape. And even start automatically with the first pulse from the tape.
Other systems only required projectors with a simple reed contact, outputting 1 switch impulse per frame. (only option for 16 mm)
This switching impulses of the reed contact were inputted into the syncing equipment, that was able to influence the actual speed of the tape. The result again, is a frame accurate sound transfer.
The only sync equipment brand that survived all video troubles of the last year is GEBUHR, still producing the complete range of equipment, including sound solutions for S8 projectors coupled to CD players.

So - only for shooting, a slide sound recorder plus tone generator cable is enough, but transfering the stuff back to stripe, you need syncing equipment. THe most simple thing is the Elmo GS projector with inbuilt pulse syncing unit.

Pedro

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[rollemfilm]

i tried buying some gebuhr gear here in the states. none could be found. the film group sells the same type of equipment.

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[cameraguy]

Is it possible to record pulses onto one of the stereo tracks of a minidisc recorder? Since it is a stereo minijack, would there be any interference if you split the channels with one for microphone and other for camera flash (1k hz generator)?

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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cameraguy:
Is it possible to record pulses onto one of the stereo tracks of a minidisc recorder? Since it is a stereo minijack, would there be any interference if you split the channels with one for microphone and other for camera flash (1k hz generator)?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did recently work with someone that wanted to record synch sound on one with NO clapper at the beginning or end of each take (for the usual reference when lining things up on computer).

As a result, I came up with the following solution: I gaffer-taped a cheap wireless lapel mic to his Bolex and plugged the receiver into one channel of the minidisk recorder. The other channel we ran the location audio into. The minidisk was started first, then the camera. The wireless lapel picked up the camera motor noise clearly and recorded it on one channel across from the location sound.

Later, after the footage and audio was transferred, the wave form of the camera motor was clearly visible on the left channel of the timeline. That was used as a perfect indicator of the start and stop of the camera and was used in place of the usual clap marks at the beginning and end of each take. Saved a ton of film and worked perfectly during audio match up. After match up, the left channel was disgarded from the time line by simply turning it down and exporting a new wave file.

It worked just great!

As a result of this, I have a new project on the workbench. It's a simple audio cassette recorder with manual audio gain and a beep tone generator built in. The remote on the cassette is triggered to start by an adhesive sensor on the super 8 camera that can tell when the camera motor is started. Basically, the instant the camera starts, the cassette starts along with a beep. When the camera stops, the cassette stops also. Then, when the camera starts again, another beep etc.

When the audio is transferred to computer, there is a short beep separating each take. All the user has to do is line up the first frame of each take with the leading edge of the first beep and the last frame of the clip with the leading edge of the next beep. Then do the same for the next clip. EZ as pie.

I'm making some modifications to my design but I hope to have a prototype available for someone to field test pretty soon. I know that cassette isn't the favorite son compared to minidisk. However, for voice recording, I know it is more than adequate and a far cry from the sound stripe that everyone wishes would come back (including me!). One of the mods is to double the tape speed for better fidelity.

A secondary mod is a small light attachment that goes on the lens or clips to a lens hood. It would actually provide a visible "flash" across as many frames as the beep occupies on the tape. It, too, would flash only at the beginnging of each clip when the motor starts. On the timeline, there would be flash frames separating each take, just as there would be corresponding beeps on the tape. This secondary device would make it easier to find the beginning and end of each clip on scenes where the camera didn't obviously move or it was too dark to tell where the new clip started.

If this all proves successful (and I'mm 100% sure it will), I will offer these units for sale in the near future at a price that I hope will be affordable to the average shooter. Again, not CD quality but better than it has to be for lip synch and convenient enough that a single person could shoot and record sound without wasting film on clap boards at the beginning and end of each take.

And, of course, cheap.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[#Pedro]

Cameraguy:
Yes, it is possible. The chanal separation of MD is good enough to record camera beeps during recoring live sound on the other chanel. The MD needs to have a manual gain regulation, best for each chanel separatly. A SIMPLE interface to connect between camera flash contact and MD is published on Kontons site. The recorded signal can be used to input into the Gebuhr (or comparable) pulse sync system.
The only drawback of MD is, that stereo live sound is not possible that way, and the MD unit cannot be regulated lateron during sound editing.


Roger:

This is a solution ONLY for the video way. Recorded motor sound is far to complicated and complex to make secure frame pulses of it, that could feed a sync system like Gebuhr. Why not use the flash socket + beeper that every serious camera has?
A better progress in practice would be a WIRELESS sync-coupling to the recorder. These units were built by various companies in Europe, but are out of production. Mr Gebuhr never wanted to bother with radio waves and restrictions and sticks strongly to his cable-connection, even nowadays, despite of public demand.
I have two wireless interfaces (Ebay): One is the P?TTER model. A small battery operated transmitter to be connected to the camera and fixed to the camera. And a small receiver, connected and powered by the recorder. Every time you pull the trigger, the receiver gets it?s 1 pulse per frame signal and records beeps to the tape. Clear 0 dB sinus beeps, easy to detect and a secure and reliable source for syncing systems.
The other one is the SYNPUTER, nearly the same but with some genious features in the receiver. You can switch it to start/stop mode, and it starts and stops the recorder according to the camera, while recording the pulses like P?TTER.
You can switch it to DELAY mode, and it will record 1 minute after the szene. So you have enough sound for editing. And you can use the CONTINUOUS mode for recording all the sound during and between the szenes.

This units meets exactly the requirements in practice. And afterwards you have BOTH options: video/computer or real film, as the recorded pulses are reliable for syncing systems (or the ELMO GS sync input).


Comment to Film Group - Gebuhr:

I also studied the site of TFG. Their system is completly differernt to Gebuhr. The basic idea of TFG is to crystal sync the camera and to record crystal exact pilot tone to the recorder track. Afterwards, the speed alterations of the tape can be compensated analyzing the recorded pilot tone and film and sound can be matched.

The Gebuhr system LEAVES THE CAMERAS AS THEY ARE - NO CRYSTAL REQUIRED BUT PERFECT SYNC!
The sound recorder records only a REFERENCE of the camera running characteristics, the impulse track (NO pilote tone).
The main concern of the Gebuhr system is modern sound film editing in the traditional way, in order to receive a sound film to be projected.
For this purpose, they offer a electronic microcomputer synchronizer that allows to transfer the live sound pulse tape to perforated tape, matching each beep to one perfo hole. Only on perfo tape, real sound editing (without physical cutting) is possible and additional sound can be added to complete the sound track. The original footage can be watched in sync during sound editing with a synced motor viewer, what is really amazing! You move the tape, hole by hole, and the viewer moves itself, frame by frame! Afterwards, the projector feeds the synchronizer with reed pulses and the synchronizer matches the perfo tape?s speed according to the projector. Now the sound can be transfered in one step to sound stripe. Instead of the projector, you can connect the Gebuhr CD-recorder and record a synced CD-Audio. The recorder is now controlling the speed of the perfo tape. For projection, the projector controls the speed of the Gebuhr CD-Player and you have the most modern HIFI sound with HQ picture!
All Gebuhr products are easyly international available over Bavaria Film Munich. http://www.bavaria-cinehome.de/
Only email what you want that your system would have to do and they will offer you the adequate configuration of the components.

Pedro

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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by #Pedro:

This is a solution ONLY for the video way. Recorded motor sound is far to complicated and complex to make secure frame pulses of it, that could feed a sync system like Gebuhr. Why not use the flash socket + beeper that every serious camera has?
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Hi, Pedro!

You need to re-read my post. I never suggested that the motor sounds could be used to establish sync pulses for projection sync later on. (how silly!) All I said was that the sound of the motor establishes WHEN the camera starts and stops. Yes, this is for video only. Again, I never implied otherwise.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[cameraguy]

I should have clarified that my final goal is sound striped film. No computer will be used or clapper. The flash beeps tell me when the camera was running and when it wasn't, I will resolve with a GS-1200 and I certainly don't need stereo live sound.

Pedro, I don't think any of the Minidisc portables offer seperate record level control (except maybe the Marantz $1000 job). I'll give it a try with my Sharp.

I also emailed Bavaria a while back about modifying my Sony WM-D6C cassette but they never responded! Do they have anyone to anwser in English?

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[#Pedro]

cameraguy:

make shure to email to
[email protected]
and talk to Dr Hoefer who is speaking English and doing the double system sound job. If you have any problems, please let me know, I can phone them.

They modified my Sony a few month ago and it was no problem. At the same time, you could purchase the sync cable with in-built 1000 Hz beeper which is EUR 80, then you won?t have to bother with the right connections and signal levels. This cable outputs a very clear 0 dB impulse to any sound head and connects directly to the Sony WM-D6C AV.

They have also another cable in their program to connect the Sony (or another AV tape device) specially to the Elmo. This cable has an in-built impulse amplifyer to drive directly the Elmo.

The setup with the Elmo is really the easyest way to go!

You can try out all this with a MD, too. Perhaps you would need a potentiometer at the beeper?s output, in order to adjust the level. A too high level may result in coupling to the other stereo chanel or in overdriving the input amp of the MD. And distorted pulses won?t give a reliable syncronization.

Pedro



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